Dev's Conceptual Model of Chastity

[Dev]

Good point, especially on the male negative language. I hadn't thought of it that way before.

Men do like to masturbate, you are absolutely correct. The problem comes in when their masturbatory pleasure begins to interfere with other sexual interactions. And it's not just men in their 40s+ who aren't young stallions who no longer are able to come three or four times a day. As I posted in another message, Dan Savage is constantly answering questions from guys, of all ages, who have gotten so used to doing it a certain way with their hand, they are not able to come any other way.

Speaking from experience, it's a tough situation for a wife who is not able to have the type of penetrative sex she enjoys because of her husband's masturbation session that occurred eight hours prior. If he knew he'd been having sex that evening, maybe he would have held off. But then if said-sex didn't materialize, he'd be cranky. Or she didn't know he'd masturbated and thought sex was a reasonable expectation, but then things didn't work out to her (or his, to be honest) mutual satisfaction.

It can become, very quickly, a vicious cycle.

D

[mikecb]

Can we stop saying that men are "addicted" to masturbation? To me, that's a sex-negative and male-negative way to say that men like to masturbate..

Hmm. I see your argument here, but I'm not so sure I agree.

I'm not that versed in the biology of what happens during orgasm, but I >imagine< that during this time that hormones like endorphins are released. Some of those "feel good" horomones CAN be addictive. I work, part time, in the fitness industry. There is a phenomenon called "Exercise Addiction". I've heard arguments that this is, in part, due to an addiction to the endorphins.

So, I do >believe< that there is a chemical dependency (our own feel-good hormones) that can develop from masturbation, just like it can from exercise, or even pain play (two of my own "addictions"). Is that natural. Hell ya! Is it male-negative. No. Is it an addiction? Maybe. I would argue that by reducing the frequency of masturbation over time, you could reduce perceived dependency on, say, daily masturbation. If certainly worked that way for me.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.... ?

mikecb

[mikecb]

Another thought... perhaps "addition" is too loaded a word. I think for many, it goes beyond a healthy, normal desire to masturbate. How about "compulsion"?

[thumper]

But we're engineered to want that feeling. It's not like we're taking some illicit drug to get an ever harder to achieve rush. We are *supposed* to orgasm and you do it using shit that was born attached to your body. You and I and a pretty much everyone else here have chosen to circumvent that natural urge because we like how it makes us feel (more endorphins? more feel-good hormones?). What's the difference between becoming "addicted" to masturbation and becoming similarly "addicted" to chastity?

We're all of us trying to feel good. It's what we do. Unless and until it becomes destructive, I don't know what the issue is. Over masturbating is like over eating or playing Halo until dawn or obsessively checking Facebook every 38 seconds. It is *not* like alcoholism. Not at all.

[thumper]

What's the difference between becoming "addicted" to masturbation and becoming similarly "addicted" to chastity?

Except for the usually-positive side effect for our relationships. That's it, as far as I can tell.

[Dev]

What's the difference between becoming "addicted" to masturbation and becoming similarly "addicted" to chastity?

If there are negative outcomes to chastity, people aren't writing about it. I suspect that if a couple tries it and it doesn't work out, they put the device away and that's the end of that.

Jimi123 is worried about long-term health effects that may occur from "too much" chastity (which I think would be defined as excessive lock-up periods without orgasmic releases). Empirical evidence to document negative health outcomes is scanty to non-existent; most of what is being written seems to be speculative or anecdotal.

Negative outcomes of excessive masturbatory activity, on the other hand, are well documented.

D

[thumper]

Negative outcomes of excessive masturbatory activity, on the other hand, are well documented.

Negative outcomes of allowing your relationship to get to the point that masturbation displaces sex with your partner are well documented. I totally reject the idea that masturbation is the cause of the problem. IMO, it's a symptom, not the illness.

What we're really doing here is using the lack of orgasm to alter our behavior. Well, some or most of us are, anyway. Those of us doing it "long term" (as opposed to situationally or for just a day or two). We are altering our brain chemistry to encourage a certain outcome. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I kinda get off on it. And no, I wouldn't rather be jacking off. I like where I am and what I'm doing. CPE, after all.

It's kind of like Christine O'Donnells masturbation logic. To paraphrase, "if he can take care of himself, what does he need me for?" If masturbation was the boogyman, no relationship would ever be healthily sexual. There are people out there (in their forties or older, married for a decade or more, with kids...sound familiar?) who have great sex lives and the guy is allowed to choose when he comes. If masturbation was the death of our sex lives, our species would have been snuffed out ages ago. (And yeah, I totally cribbed that line from the Savage Love podcast.)

Again, symptom does not equal illness. That's what I'm saying. We can agree to disagree. We've veered dangerously off-topic (and it's a good one).

[Dev]

Again, symptom does not equal illness. That's what I'm saying. We can agree to disagree. We've veered dangerously off-topic (and it's a good one).

I don't think I disagree with you, so need to agree to disagree...at least not yet. I am trying to work this out in my mind, especially because, for me, it was an issue that came to light after Ab and I began this chastity exploration (ie, Ab's masturbating in the morning affected what happened between us at night. I didn't realize that was impacting his erections and orgasms to the degree it was). I think it is interesting as well as important.

We're off topic for the thread? ::shrugs:: It is all relevant, to me. Now if you were posting pictures of fat guys, that might be another story.

D

[mikecb]

Again, symptom does not equal illness. That's what I'm saying. We can agree to disagree. We've veered dangerously off-topic (and it's a good one).

Well, to keep off-roading for just another moment....

Drinking alcohol with moderation isn't a problem. Compulsively drinking alcohol can be a symptom of an underlying physical or emotional dependency.

I propose that Masturbating with moderation isn't a problem. But, just like alcohol, compulsively masturbating can be a symptom of an underlying physical or emotional dependency.

Coming back onto the road a bit, my supposition was that if such a dependency exists (I'll grant you the "if"), then perhaps the 21 day "dry out" period can help break that cycle of dependency. Obviously, if you don't believe that such a dependency to masturbation can manifest itself, than the "21 days to break/make a habit" bit woudn't apply.

I do "hear" you with regard to Masturbation being a more or less hard-wired male response. We're wired in our DNA to spread our seed far and wide. Masturbation is the response we manifest in order to avoid getting arrested! lol.

I guess the point Thumper and I disagree on is whether compulsive masturbation can be a disorder, or simply a manifestation of how we're hard-wired.

Get it?? Hard-wired... arr, arr, arr

mikecb

[thumper]

The 21 day thing doesn't make sense to me because I don't think masturbation is a habit. It's a normal part of a man's sexuality. Hell, it's a normal part of human sexuality. The only habit that needs breaking is the one that allows the two partners to drift apart so much that he decides jacking off is the best option (and she just lets him). Enforced chastity makes that happen because he's rewired to direct all his sexual energy towards her. He's got no other outlet. He has to learn to glean what relief he can from her orgasm because he's not getting one.

Not that chastity allows that happen all by itself. As has been said by wiser men then me, slapping $200 worth of polycarbonate on your junk won't fix your relationship. But, in combination with other relationship repairing activities, it's a sterling way to maintain sexual focus within your relationship. I think most of us see the value in chastity once we do it. Best case scenario, our partners come to see it, too.

Now, as to whether excessive masturbation can be a disorder, yes, it can. I've said that all along. Anything can be done to destructive excess. But I don't believe everyone practicing enforced chastity is a recovering jerk-o-holic. And I don't think it's right for men to think they damaged their relationship because they jacked-off. Nine times out of ten, IMO, both partners share responsibility if things come to that.